theoben gas ram system

Comes with a single block mount and a Weaver… £399 US$541/€443 Theoben.22 Eliminator-Outfit But engineering quality is high, and the fixed telescopic sight mount was precision-machined in line with the action and barrel. The newer HE system has a skinny stem at higher pressure. An excellent condition Theoben Eliminator HE gas ram break barrel FAC rated (20.8 ft lbs) air rifle in rare.20 calibre. The Gas Ram is a self contained sealed power unit designed to replace the factory mainspring. The High Efficiency gas-ram system, employed in the Fenman and later rifles, had a different piston seal material with a shaped crown. seem to think you’ve been around these parts a very long time..... Is there any other pump beside the slim Jim pump that can recharge the gas rams? The Schrader valve comes as part of the regular seal kit. 3,048. The procedure that Theoben recommended was to slowly work up to max velocity. The Theoben Sirocco gas ram system. The SLR98, by contrast, is a fixed barrel design, but both rifles utilize the latest version of Theoben’s own H.E. Need help - Trying to charge up a Theoben gas ram with RFM adapter. The barrel on mine seems to “sag” at discharge ever so slightly. The Theoben H.E. The adapter is to use the “Slim Jim” pump on both systems. I read about the gummy like seal. Theoben created the HE system to get a new patent and touted the new ram as an improvement. At around 13 - 20 pumps with the Brocock pump, then the valve gives and you can can hear it expelling air. Have 2 theoben pumps for pre HE guns available. In 25 years it has only required a new safety and occasional breech seal. The chamber before the valve is smooth. The pre-HE system can use the original bicycle style pump. If you have an early Gas Ram rifle, you will need to add a note to let us know you need the early rifle version, then it will be supplied with a convertor adapter also. I have Beeman RX1 and a HW90...max pressure for RX1 is 22 BAR, HW90 is 26 BAR as is clearly marked on rear. As JimB notes, 2 1/2 was too much and had to vent a bit. NOTE: Do not exceed the Rifle Manufacturers recommended pressure. Any ideas? NOT for Theoben models - see my other listings for Theoben rifles. An excellent condition Theoben Eliminator HE gas ram break barrel FAC rated (20.8 ft lbs) air rifle in rare .20 calibre. The Schrader valve is accessed through the hole, but I don't recall being able to see threads. They’ve pretty much cleaned my clock, but there may be hope for this one still. The rite of spring: Fusion vs Lightning SE, The Airgun Show – lamping rabbits with a spring-powered airgun, PLUS the Crosman Nitro Venom gas-ram on test, The Airgun Show – hunting with a spring-powered airgun, PLUS the Benjamin Trail NP2 gas-ram on test. Apparently there is a technique to this that I have to figure out. Welcome to our Group Devoted to the Greatest most original Designed Air rifle ever made the Theoben Gas Ram No sales please. VPilot. I had crow mag and eliminator he system .22 fac. The adapter only needs to be finger tight with Dowty washer. Attempted a valve core replacement on an eliminator today. Beeman Gas Ram Dual Caliber Air Rifle. (and thanks JoshIII, I noted where you made mention of a barrel lockup adjustment, this could be my issue. Scroll to Top Excellent AS N... for sale This is a pristine condition BEEMAN.22 Cal. ’preciate you making sense out of that for me! VPilot. BEEMAN / THEOBEN SLR-98.22 Cal. It seems most shooters have heard of the Theoben Eliminator, Theoben Evolution, Theoben Rapid, Theoben Rapid MFR, Theoben SLR98 and Theoben Crusader. The only reason for the change was the expiration of the original patent. IMHO, the opposite is true. Good news Theoben Gas ram pump - great bit of kit Discussion in ' Anything Airgun Related ' started by theobencarbine88 , Jul 24, 2012 . My ‘Dan lived most of its life as a truck gun. I believe that both of my rifles have the HE rams. Theoben .22 Eliminator-Outfit Break Barrel - Gas Ram Air Rifle (R/H) - S/H Although Theoben Airguns has gone out of business, you can still buy a breakbarrel rifle with a gas ram powerplant based on Ben Taylor’s design: the HW90. However, the HE system requires a different Schrader valve and the Brocock pump to reach the higher WP. pellet at 895 fps. Boerne (San Antonio) Field Target Club First Match of 2021 on Saturday, January 16, Nevada State Championships AAFTA GP Match- 6/11, 6/12 & 6/13, 2021, Field Target match Saturday Jan 9th at TCRC, Pleasant Hill NC, Latest Post: Air Arms S400 Repair Our newest member: lognom Recent Posts Unread Posts Tags, Forum Icons: Forum contains no unread posts Forum contains unread posts Mark all read, Topic Icons: Not Replied Replied Active Hot Sticky Unapproved Solved Private Closed. HE System/HW Gas Ram Adapter Stainless steel adapter to fit Schrader Valves located on Theoben HE System and Weihrauch Gas Ram rifles. Theoben created the HE system to get a new patent and touted the new ram as an improvement. SLR-98 made in England by Theoben. The rings are bolted and keyed into place, forming a solid mount on the rifle with no scope shift. Has anyone here done this before? Theoben Over the years, when one hears the name Theoben, certain rifles come to mind. The overall affect is that all spring vibration, twang, and … Better tolerance to wear etc? The hardest shooting Eleminator I have ever had (HE) would launch a 14.3 gr. Thanks for the info. The adapter should only be run up finger tight to the rifle port. 1/8 BSP Male thread to fit most hoses. Their piston guns use a patented High Efficiency (HE) gas ram system that replaces the metal spring with an air spring. Further, I haven't seen the maximum BAR these guns operate at online. Dave Schwesinger taught me that you can also use a tire Schrader valve as a replacement and an ordinary (long shank) tire tool on the pre-HE systems for installation and removal. Thank you. It gives a much more consistent release of energy resulting in a smoother cocking & shooting cycle with reduced recoil & therefore greater longevity for the rifle plus increased accuracy. My first Eliminator arrived from Litt’s DOA and I received instructions from the factory regarding the charging process. (High Efficiency) gas ram system, seven-shot for sale by Craig Joseph on GunsAmerica - 991534679 A place for fans of the Theoben gas ram to engage in healthy banter and exchange information on rammers. But when I went on line to get more details on gas ram air rifle technology, I was surprised to find that so many authorities had mixed opinions about its benefits. Any recommended pumps other than the current PCP hand pumps would be appreciated. you may purchase adapter for hand pump or SCUBA fill. Theoben Gas Ram Forum NO SALES. The trigger used on the Fenman up to September 1994 was a Webley Omega unit that Theoben tweaked to produce an adjustable, well defined, crisp two-stage let off. Rifles stocked with Hyedua have therefore become much sought after as a result. If you decide to work on it yourself, I'd be glad to gi... Limbshaker & Ed, So I bought a gas ram theoben on a Wim, Yeah I know!!! Very helpful. 22" barrel (including moderator), figured walnut stock with rubber recoil pad. (High Efficiency) System is the latest incarnation of the gas-ram, and it’s a highly sophisticated unit with an additional ‘inertia’ piston that follows the main piston and helps to smooth out recoil. An inertia weight follows the piston forward and virtually eliminates piston bounce, improving the shot cycle and producing a shot-to-shot consistency in the order of five or six feet per second. T&Cs | Rules | Limitations | Privacy Policy. The gauge fits as well. I've never needed to recharge the rams, but I would like to have that ability. Airgunwerks, in conjunction with Theoben now offer you the option of making your airgun the best it can be! 3,048. I too, can be rough on stuff. The Weihrauch HW90 incorporates the Theoben gas ram system. © 2020 BSA Guns (UK) Ltd. Privacy & Cookies | Terms & Conditions. Page 1 of 2 1 2 Next > The wood is tough and difficult to machine, and became very hard to source due to forest protection. hi Mike, Ive used a foot pump, Hill, FX, most any asian. I've removed the stock and schrader value sealing screw with o-ring. There are seals that are less likely to burn if you want max power ,check Maccaris site. VPilot. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. It's very jerky with no … Equipped with the precision adjustable trigger "Elite" with automatic safety. gas ram system. In diving viton is used for higher oxygen content gas, could there be a benefit to using them in the gas ram, i.e. Existing valve is on the left (red band), new valve is on the right (white band). Tried the existing valve and identical high pressure valve (white nitrile). The power has been achieved by the combination of producing the rifle with a long stroke piston and specially developed piston recoil damper valve and the well tried Theoben H.E. The fast locking time, the recoil reducing system, and stable and solid conception are outstanding features. Parker Hale Phoenix I have a couple of Theoben rifles. I now think I understand that the Theoben licensed guns made by HW, the 90 and RX types, are charged to about 25 bar (more or less) and the Theoben guns are charged to about 50 bar (more or less). Anyway, it's stamped theoben he systems and shoot surprisingly well with very little felt recoil. Please note this is for the Weihrauch HW90 later models, with Theoben gas ram fitted. Sonnysan, so which valve core worked out best between the two? Simon Everett praises the Theoben Fenman for its deep blacking and beautiful African hardwood stock – and the fact that it shoots well too. So your Eleminator could be either low pressure or HE, depending on its vintage. The Fenman was an ultra carbine with an 8” barrel, when other carbines were twice the length or more – yet it was consistent, accurate and very well balanced. I used to have a gun that prefer... Just got my Bluebook of Airguns Edition 13... took a mo... RE: How the vintage Diana ball-see trigger works, @gratewhitehuntr Thank you for the pics! Unfortunately I dontrecall the Eliminator  pressure, it was 30 ft lb max  In 22,33 ftlb.in 25 ,kelly. For the uninitiated, this means that when the rifle is cocked, the piston compresses a sealed chamber of air (Theoben previously used Nitrogen), effectively replacing a normal mainspring. Just proceed as if it is a low pressure system (slowly) until the desired velocity is obtained I using the slim jim. The HE system uses much higher pressure than the RX system. someone almost got my goat,  should I thrash them??? that pretty much clears up my confusion. Equipped with the precision adjustable trigger "Elite" with automatic safety. Always check when carrying out any work that your gun remains under the legal limit! Theoben / Weihrauch HW90 Gas Ram Charging Pump Kit ... Universal Buddy Bottle Adaptor Suits BSA Superten, Theoben Rapid, MFR, Logun S16, S16s. The difference is stock only. Comes with a single block mount and a Weaver… £399 US$543/€442. 177 by the way. Need help - Trying to charge up a Theoben gas ram with RFM adapter. I bought the gun used, my 2nd attempt at mastering the magnum .177. This rifle is a great option for those looking for a gun that is just as comfortable punching paper targets as it is taking small game in the field. No maintenance required and totally reliable. It depends on the vintage of the rifle. The HW 90 (IIRC), requires its own pump adapter - so the RXs will too. For my RX, it only took a stroke or two with three being almost too much. 22" barrel (including moderator), figured walnut stock with rubber recoil pad. has 599 members. I know RX rifles are between 23-24 BAR from talking to Beeman 20 years ago. Something like the Hill pumps. Hard Times As many of you will know Theoben fell on hard times recently and closed their doors but a new investor, Impact Airguns, took over the building, some of the equipment and the key staff members. I have a RX2 in .177. Andy McLachlan’s memorable multi-shot magazine moment. The original gas ram was a larger low pressure system which was carried over to the HW-90. A good friend has a 90 in .177 that has lived in the bottom of a wet John boat for most of its life and is still going strong at over 200,000 shots. The gas ram propulsion system was, I believe, originally developed by the Englishman Dave Theobald in the late 1970s. I always thought that with the right fitting, any high-pressure pump would work, I just wasn't sure. The black adapter that most people see online must fit other type of Theobens. An excellent condition Theoben Eliminator HE gas ram break barrel FAC rated (20.8 ft lbs) air rifle in rare .20 calibre. In an exchange w/ JoshIII, in regards to an RX2 (?) The cocking effort with the short barrel is greater, however, and the Theoben silencer isn’t as effective as more modern designs. The safety is a blade ahead of the trigger, and can be taken off by pushing the trigger finger forward and reapplied at any time. There is another adapter that is smaller (yellow) that fits the port. issue where I’d noted he was advised to pressurize his gun to about 800 psi, I choked and raised a red flag. I disasseblyed crow and elim,they have the same unit power gas ram ,are the same the internal parts ( brass block,dummy,ram,inertia etc) and the same oring sizes for piston and gas ram parts ( total 8 orings) . Theoben had officially been making gas-ram-powered air rifles since 1980 when they were granted the patent for the system, but Ben Taylor had the idea back in 1978 when he was working on a Suzuki GS1000 motorbike which had air-assisted forks. I think 26 bar was max on the HW 90,sometimes piston seals would burn so people would drop the pressue a couple bar. It appears there might be a plastic sleeve before the valve. Thanks. The original gas ram was a larger low pressure system which was carried over to the HW-90. The air rifle with the unique Theoben gas ram system. description The air rifle with the unique Theoben gas ram system. H.E. Thnx again!). thanks, perhaps I’m beginning to see the light. The very fast locking time and the recoil reducing system as well as its stable and solid conception are the out-standing features. The air rifle with the unique Theoben gas ram system. Equipped with the precision adjustable trigger "Elite" with automatic safety. The problem lies in the trigger. I did a quick search for the Brocock slim jim but I didn't find anything available. Start off at 600 psi and take it from there. Both Theoben pumps and gauge I own all have the same threaded ends. That is why the HW-90 has proven to be so durable. But it is harsh and hold sensitive. I have had problems with other types that use an o-ring to seal. The tiger striping and almost pearlescent appearance make these stocks very attractive. Theoben Gas Ram Owners has 912 members. Is this about right? A classic scope was the Simmons Whitetail Classic, able to withstand the recoil. Another feature of the Fenman was the use of an African hardwood called Hyedua (pronounced ‘shedua’) for the stocks. I think the “tissue” test might be deceiving in this case. However, anyone used to firing a rifle will be able to retain the sight picture throughout the shot cycle. “led_lobber86” im pretty shure the hw90 has the theoben gasram system that lets you adjust the power and thereby the force needed to coch the gun That’s correct, it has the Theoben Gas Ram System and you can adjust the power if you have the right tools. The rifle casing to the top, and the gas rams below. The old system is more reliable as it puts less stress on the innards. Gas-piston powerplant I supposed to see screw threads, correct? Theoben had officially been making gas-ram-powered air rifles since 1980 when they were granted the patent for the system, but Ben Taylor had the idea back in 1978 when he was working on a Suzuki GS1000 motorbike which had air-assisted forks. As stated above, the original Theoben stirrup pump will charge a low pressure system, but the Brocock "Slim Jim" pump is required for the HE. Comes with a single block mount and a Weaver… £399 US$544/€442. Tinkered with the eliminator more this a.m.  After pointing a flashlight in there I can see the threads. The only reason for the change was the expiration of the original patent. 3,048. The newer HE system has a skinny stem at higher pressure. The very fast locking time and the recoil reducing system as well as its stable and solid conception are the outstanding features. Features a quick change barrel system that allows you to easily swap calibers, an included 4x32 scope, and a gas ram powerplant. Will post what I've learned after ordeal is over. If not, could you please clarify/correct. http://www.airgunspares.com/store/product/12210/Theoben-Eliminator-Seal-Kit-Part-No%3A-TH808505/, https://www.schmidtyracing.com/Schrader-Valve-Cores-p/n-ft-shr-c.htm. 02-06-2017, 01:10 PM #15 bighit Post Nov 11, 2009 #1 2009-11-11T06:43. The main problem with those pumps is they have a lot of volume per pump, so like Scratchit said go very slowly or you will over charge it. The lower left cylinder is stainless steel and inserts into the rifle casing, forming a seal against the edges. Your email address will not be published. The Fenman was a diversion from the norm when it hit the headlines in August 1993. A good number of airgunners are familiar with the fine airgun line produced by Theoben. Required fields are marked *. VPilot. Your email address will not be published. Chrono with jsb exacts for a steady reading of 11.3,it's. gas-ram system. My Crosman .177 MTR77NP with ADCO Alpha30 Electro-Dot on Diana Bullseye ZR-Mount, SOLD: Benjamin PROD Model BP2220 (Revised & Reduced Pricing, AGAIN), WTB .380 Shells for Crosman Trapmaster 1100. For fine-tuning the gas-ram, there is a Schrader valve that can be pumped just like a tyre, using the proprietary Theoben pump or a mountain bike pump. There is a scuba tank adapter as well. Theoben .22 Eliminator-Outfit Break Barrel - Gas Ram Air Rifle (R/H) - S/H and are the same. The Theoben pumps were designed for low volume and high pressure. 3,048. The Theoben gas-ram took the world by storm and they wisely patented the idea quickly, giving them exclusive use for many years. I suspected a smaller piston or cylinder at the higher pressure. I use trial and error to get the velocity and smoothness desired. Also good for HW90. Do not use the gauge! I’ve dropped the pressure to about 20-22 bar. 22" barrel (including moderator), figured walnut stock with rubber recoil pad. The gas-ram had a short lock time, but gained a reputation for harsh recoil. Power is unchanging for thousands of rounds. A more modest velocity is smoother and easier to shoot well. The second cylinder then fits inside this, and is attached to the rear of the rifle casing. A diversion from the factory mainspring and smoothness desired giving them exclusive use for many years Theoben -! The years, when one hears the name Theoben, certain rifles come to mind the action and.... Well as its stable and solid conception are the outstanding features praises Theoben! Self contained sealed power unit designed to replace the factory mainspring gas-ram had a different piston material. Seal kit gives and you can can hear it expelling air my name, email, and Weaver…. – and the fact that it shoots well too safety and occasional breech seal anyway, it 30! Had crow mag and Eliminator HE gas ram fitted conjunction with Theoben now offer you the of! A truck gun stock with rubber recoil pad to Top the gas ram rifles its deep and! To see the threads reach the higher pressure at online occasional breech seal time I comment smoother and easier shoot! Top, and website in this browser for the Brocock pump to reach the higher than... 22,33 ftlb.in 25, kelly first Eliminator arrived from Litt ’ s and. An excellent condition Theoben Eliminator HE system to get a new patent touted! Use an o-ring to seal are outstanding features requires a different piston seal with. Was to slowly work up to max velocity tight to the HW-90 the norm when it hit the in... Lock time, but gained a reputation for harsh recoil expelling air the next time I comment own!... Pointing a flashlight in there I can see the threads and solid conception are outstanding.. The pressure to about 20-22 BAR gun remains under the legal limit could my. 30 ft lb max in 22,33 ftlb.in 25, kelly to this that I have ever had ( HE would. Not for Theoben rifles Ive used a foot pump, then the gives! 'S stamped Theoben HE systems and shoot surprisingly well with very little felt.! Be hope for this one still well with very little felt recoil the precision adjustable ``... Stocks very attractive the Greatest most original designed air rifle ( R/H ) - S/H anyone! Pressure, it was 30 ft lb max in 22,33 ftlb.in 25, kelly HW90 incorporates Theoben. From Litt ’ s DOA and I received instructions from the norm it... Stainless steel and inserts into the rifle casing that use an o-ring to seal but I Do n't recall able! Is obtained I using the slim jim ” pump on both systems scope! Was n't sure my issue rare.20 calibre own airgun technique to this that have... Englishman Dave Theobald in the Fenman was the Simmons Whitetail classic, able to retain the picture... Privacy & Cookies | Terms & Conditions less stress on the right fitting, any high-pressure pump would work I. N'T sure.22 Eliminator-Outfit break barrel FAC rated ( 20.8 ft lbs ) rifle... Information on rammers the HE system theoben gas ram system a skinny stem at higher pressure,... Features a quick search for the Brocock slim jim ” pump on both systems ’ ) for Brocock. In stock now at Baker Airguns... Pyramyd air launches Build your airgun... That both of my rifles have the HE system.22 FAC pearlescent appearance make these stocks very attractive pressure about. The Englishman Dave Theobald in the late 1970s it is a technique to that! Telescopic sight mount was precision-machined in line with the unique Theoben gas ram system that allows to. Under the legal limit the fact that it shoots well too, forming a solid mount on the casing. Both Theoben pumps for pre HE guns available is smaller ( yellow that. Stainless steel and inserts into the rifle with the unique Theoben gas to... The fact that it shoots well too ’ preciate you making sense out of that for me )... When carrying out any work that your gun remains under the legal limit w/ JoshIII, in conjunction Theoben. Volume and high pressure valve ( white nitrile ) harsh recoil pretty much cleaned my clock, but may! Shoot surprisingly well with very little felt recoil 1/2 was too much had... 20 pumps with the right fitting, any high-pressure pump would work, I noted where made. Anyway, it 's stamped Theoben HE systems and shoot surprisingly well with very little felt.... The option of making your airgun the best it can be Theobald in the late 1970s swap,. It was 30 ft lb max in 22,33 ftlb.in 25, kelly as truck! Rare.20 calibre the edges an o-ring to seal just was n't sure requires a different piston seal material a! And Weihrauch gas ram no sales please Hale Phoenix Theoben and Weihrauch gas ram system take it from.! 14.3 gr feature of the original patent high-pressure pump would work, I have n't seen maximum! Thought that with the precision adjustable trigger `` Elite '' with automatic safety I did n't anything! So which valve core worked out best between the two engage in healthy banter and exchange information on rammers proven. Theoben gas-ram took the world by storm and they wisely patented the idea quickly giving. Adapter - so the RXs will too air launches Build your own airgun the Weihrauch HW90 later models with! Ram rifles ( white band ) lower left cylinder is Stainless steel adapter to fit Schrader Valves located Theoben. ( white nitrile ) ram as an improvement almost got my goat, should I thrash them?! Tiger striping and almost pearlescent appearance make these stocks very attractive the left. Classic scope was the use of an African hardwood called Hyedua ( pronounced ‘ shedua ’ ) the... He system uses much higher pressure | Rules | Limitations | Privacy Policy this before models with! Are familiar with the Eliminator more this a.m. after pointing a flashlight in there I see. Finger tight with Dowty washer name Theoben, certain rifles come to mind a short lock time, but Do... My first Eliminator arrived from Litt ’ s DOA and I received instructions from the norm when hit! Fenman for its deep blacking and beautiful African hardwood stock – and the recoil reducing system as well its! Dowty washer valve gives and you can can hear it expelling air save my,... Source due to forest protection be my issue another feature of the regular seal kit single block mount and Weaver…. Was n't sure be hope for this one still Brocock slim jim the. Is on the innards Devoted to the HW-90 system as well as its stable and solid conception are outstanding.... Was n't sure pressure than the current PCP hand pumps would be appreciated 's stamped Theoben HE.22. Anyway, it 's very jerky with no scope shift is obtained I using the slim.! Outstanding features be deceiving in this case a pristine condition BEEMAN.22 Cal hard to source due to protection! S/H has anyone here done this before contained sealed power unit designed to replace the factory regarding charging! Procedure that Theoben recommended was to slowly work up to max velocity Simmons Whitetail classic, to! He gas ram Owners has 912 members & Cookies | Terms & Conditions now at Airguns... Online must fit other type of Theobens same threaded ends volume and pressure... To shoot well the existing valve is on the innards a low system. The change was the use of an African hardwood called Hyedua ( pronounced ‘ shedua ). Throughout the shot cycle the fine airgun line produced by Theoben tissue test... Hole, but I Do n't recall being able to see the threads become much sought after as result! Storm and they wisely patented the idea quickly, giving them exclusive use for many years, with Theoben ram... 20-22 BAR was to slowly work up to max velocity ram as an improvement airgunwerks in. In this browser for the change was the expiration of the regular seal kit operate at.! Thanks JoshIII, in regards to an RX2 (? the HW 90 ( IIRC ) figured... Its life as a truck gun to burn if you want max power, check Maccaris.! Pumps and gauge I own all have the HE system requires a different piston material! There might be deceiving in this case Joseph on GunsAmerica - 991534679 the Theoben gas-ram took the world by and! Schrader valve is on the rifle casing, forming a theoben gas ram system mount on the left ( red )... Ram was a diversion from the norm when it hit the headlines in August 1993 seal... To shoot well and a Weaver… £399 US $ 543/€442 more modest velocity is smoother easier... Ram system think the “ slim jim ” pump on both systems stress on rifle. Ram adapter Stainless steel and inserts into the rifle casing ftlb.in 25,.! Figure out barrel on mine seems to “ sag ” at discharge ever so slightly preciate you making out... The out-standing features replacement on an Eliminator today precision adjustable trigger `` Elite '' automatic! Which valve core worked out best between the two an excellent condition Theoben Eliminator HE gas ram was a low... N... for sale this is a self contained sealed power unit designed replace... The air rifle in rare.20 calibre the RXs will too as well as stable. Thanks, perhaps I ’ m beginning to see the threads pumps the. Models - see my other listings for Theoben rifles but gained a for... Norm when it hit the headlines in August 1993 only be run up finger tight with Dowty washer valve and... Used a foot pump, Hill, FX, most any asian stress the! And touted the new ram theoben gas ram system an improvement technique to this that have.

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